Episode 33: So You Want To Be a Doctor: Preparing for a Medical Career While in College

Episode 33 Transcript

• Episode 33 Transcript

  [00:00:07] BT: I don't know about you, but there was a time when my future aspirations changed on almost a daily basis. I wanted to be everything under the sun when I grew up — a teacher, an astronaut, a ballerina and even a doctor at one point. And while I ultimately ended up as a writer and podcaster, my admiration for medical professionals is still as strong as ever, especially in these times.

  [00:00:29] BW: For high schoolers who aspire to be doctors themselves. There are numerous fields to choose from. There’s surgery, physical therapy, dentistry and so many more. These are all paths to gaining the skills they need to provide great care. If you listened to our last episode, you heard all about preparing for law school. And as you might guess, from that intro just now, this episode of College Admissions Insider is all about the medical field.

  [00:00:54] BT: Today we'll chat about choosing an undergraduate major, the years of training and education that come after graduation, and how you can get a taste of which health care professions most appeal to you.

  [00:01:04] BW: I'm Bryan Wendell, joined by Brooke Thames, and to help us navigate all of this and more is Alison Patterson, a pre-health adviser at Bucknell’s Center for Career Advancement. She holds a Ph.D. in biomedical sciences from Marshall University School of Medicine, has taught anatomy and physiology at Bucknell, and has been advising pre-health students for more than a decade. Welcome to the podcast, Alison.

  [00:01:27] AP: Thank you, Bryan. It's good to be here.

  [00:01:30] BT: And so much like our guest from the pre-law episode, you support students as they prepare for careers in health care. At what point in their undergraduate journey do students typically come to you for that pre-health advising and how do you generally work with them?

  [00:01:44] AP: I think in a perfect world, I would speak with students before they ever matriculated to Bucknell. It's nice when I can talk to the students to help guide them into their major selection, into, basically, adapting to campus. Anything that goes with starting undergraduate, starting that career. In reality, most students I might meet in freshman year, some I meet at sophomores. There are some I don't meet until senior year, even till postgraduate. Rarely, I work with students along that entire spectrum from pre-undergraduate, to postgraduate.

  So in a lot of ways, it's very similar, working with all of them. Initially, because all of the health professions have a tight sort of list of classes that are required to matriculate into their programs, we work a lot with how to arrange their course schedules to get all of those requirements taken care of. Also, if they want to go abroad, if they have things that are important to them, we try to arrange their other curriculum around making those things work.

  [00:02:59] BW: So a big decision, in addition to picking what school you're going to apply to, is choosing your preferred major. So when you're thinking about a major as a high school student — when you're talking to a high school student or a family of a high school student — are you recommending a specific major? Like, is there a track that medical schools want to see a major that they want to see the applicant have? And also, how does a high school student who wants to work in health care assess which college is going to be their best bet for an undergraduate education?

  [00:03:34] AP: So those are two very, very different questions. As for what major is best, there is really no preferred major. We don't have a pre-med major or pre- any professional major at Bucknell. So you can't be pre-dental on your transcript. You can be pre-dental in your mind, but on your transcript, you're not going to be that. The best thing you can major in is the thing that you're going to enjoy the most, for two reasons: One, you're going to be a happier student; and two, if you're a happier student, you're a better student. So you're going to have a higher GPA to show for that. So I think, definitely, find the thing that is going to allow you to enjoy your time in undergraduate, and also to get all the courses that you need for whatever health profession school you're considering — whether that's medical, dental, physician assistant, whatever you're thinking about. You want to get all those requirements taken care of. So choose a major that will allow you both an enjoyable college experience but also to get all your requirements taken care of.

  As you’re considering which colleges best, the college that’s the best is the one that, when you visit, honestly, you'll step on campus and go, “This is it.” Or you'll have your tour and something will happen, and you'll go, “This is where I need to be.” I think just the opposite will happen with some schools. I mean, over the course of my time here, I've probably worked with several thousand students, and I have heard so many times, “Oh, I went to such and such school, and as soon as we went through the gates of that university, I told my mother, ‘Please turn the car around. This isn't for me.’ ” And of course, their mother made them go because they were scheduled to do it. But you will get that feeling like, “Yes, this is it,” or, “No, this is definitely not it.” And go with that. Sometimes going with your gut is a smarter thing.

  [00:05:27] BW: So both the school and the major, it's important to have that comfort and not feel like you have to check a box like, “Okay, I need to go to this school and be this major if I want to be a dentist,” or something like that.

  [00:05:37] AP: Absolutely, absolutely. The one caveat to that would be if you want to be, say, a physical therapist, and there is an undergraduate school that you are interested in that has a plus program — so two plus two, or two plus three program — where you're able to go straight through. You get your undergraduate and your physical therapy degree all at the same time. Or physician assistant, same thing. Nursing is another great example of that. If you're able to bundle that all together, I think that makes a lot of sense if you are 100,000% sure that that's exactly what you want.

  I can't tell you how many times I've had a student come in and say, “I'm going to be a doctor,” and four years later, they turn out and they're going into physical therapy, or public health, or something completely not exactly what they had intended but in that same vein.

  [00:06:24] BT: And so for students who decide that Bucknell is the place for them, and they end up working with you on that pre-health track, I wonder, are there any questions, or concerns, or maybe misconceptions even about studying to be a medical professional that you often hear from students as they come in?

  [00:06:39] AP: Usually the biggest misconception for incoming students…So a lot of times, I'll start to talk to them through admissions in their junior year of high school. Sometimes before that, but that's not as common. But they come in, and I'll say, “What do you think you might major in?” And honest to God, almost without exception, they'll say, “Well, I'll be a bio major.” And I’ll ask them, “Well, why do you want to be a bio major?” “Well, because I want to go to medical school.” And that's never the reason. You don't have to be a bio major to go to medical school. If you love biology, absolutely do biology. But don't do it just because. Like Bryan said, you're not checking a box. You're doing it because you love it. I think that's why you should major in anything. So everybody thinks they need to be a bio major, and that is probably the most common misconception.

  The other thing I hear often is that, “Oh, I can't be a doctor, because I'll be so old by the time I finish.” And that's also not true. I mean, you get to a point in life where old has a whole different meaning. 22, 23, 20-whatever is not old. So I think medical school…I mean, it's a long road, absolutely, but I don't think it puts you on that path to be old and worthless by the time you finish all your schooling.

  [00:07:52] BW: Now, there's so many different fields out there when it comes to health care, all these fields that many of which I probably wouldn't even know the definition for. Do students’ chosen courses and also the extracurriculars that they go into, are those going to be kind of linked to that field of interest? And are some fields going to be more popular than others that students are going into, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing?

  [00:08:17] AP: For the more popular, with no doubt, at Bucknell, the majority of our pre-health students are looking at medical school. It's about 80% of the pre-health population is medical school intended. So it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes they make the decision to pursue physician assistant. But that generally is the path they're looking at.

  But for courses, the courses are defined or required by the schools. It is five chemistry classes, two physics classes, two biology classes, usually two math classes, two English classes and two biology classes. It is very little biology given the sort of the excitement of everybody that thinks they need to matron bio. But it's very little biology that's actually required by these schools. And it's going to vary between medical school, physician assistant, physical therapist. So each school has its own sort of specifics, but there are going to be required classes.

  I think, for extracurriculars…I think that was the other part of your question there. Extracurriculars, the one thing that is absolutely common across every possible professional school in the health sciences that you can think of, every one of them is going to want to see community service. That community service doesn't have to be hospital volunteering. In fact, that might not be the best thing. The schools want to see a person with — and the way they put this — “they have a heart for service.” They want to serve their community, whether that's a campus community, whether that is the Lewisburg, Pa., community, or whether that's at home and that's their larger home community. But they want to see that service, sort of that leaning towards service. A lot of the schools prioritize that when they do their admissions. So service is going to be a universal for every school.

  So Brooke, you had ask about misconceptions. One of the other misconceptions I hear fairly commonly is that you have to do research to go to medical school. You very much do not. If you want to do research, I would encourage it. You're never going to be sort of frowned upon for doing research as long as you're doing it because you want to do it, not because, again, you're not checking a box. But research is something that, if you have an interest, I would encourage. It's never a bad thing. That is certainly not a requirement for the majority of schools. There are a few that will ask for it.

  [00:10:39] BT: And the fact that you don't need research, and the fact that there is little bio in that list of requirements, is that kind of coming from the place of medical programs wanting to see students that have a breadth of skills and wanting students that are well-rounded?

  [00:10:55] AP: They do they want to see that well-rounded student, but they're never going to sort of dismiss a student for having a 4.0 in a biomedical or a biochemical major. So they're not going to say, “Well, you can't come because you are excelling in a scientific field.” But they also want to see a student who does have this breadth of experience, who understands life, understands people. The majority of being a medical professional is understanding people. It's not understanding the science.

  [00:11:27] BT: And so we mentioned that worry that students will be “old” by the time that they're done. And so yeah, let's shift gears and zoom out a little bit to look at that comprehensive timeline. Becoming a doctor or other medical professional can take years and even a decade or more in some cases. And so can you help give us a kind of overview of the number of years that students are going to here?

  [00:11:51] AP: Absolutely, I think the one thing that's common to all is the four-year undergraduate degree. So we'll just assume that that four-year window is already taken up with your undergraduate degree. Some students will finish in three and a half years. But four years, we’ll just say that's going to be there. Medical school is four more years of education. Dental school is four more years. Physical therapy now is four years because it is a doctoral-level instruction. Physician assistant is the one thing that is unique in that it is a two-year graduate program, so that one is the shortest. I don't think that's a reason to pursue physician assistant as a career. I think it is a bonus if it is where you want to be. So absolutely four years undergraduate.

  Say, four years of graduate work, two if it's physician assistant. Physician assistant, after those two, you're done. You're just going to work. Dental school is four. If you want to specialize into orthodontics, or endodontics, or prosthodontics, any other specialization, you're going to have more training on top of that. Medical school, after your four years, you're going to have at minimum three years of residency. That would be for pediatrics or family medicine. Psychiatry is three to four years. Beyond that, you're looking at…surgical specialties are going to be five years or more. Neurosurgery can be seven years or more. So it's going to be a road depending on what path you choose to take.

  [00:13:25] BW: So let's talk about that road and, specifically, taking a pit stop along that road. In your experience, are students going directly from Bucknell or undergrad right into a medical program? Or is it recommended that they take some time off to get other types of experience — maybe spend a year volunteering or working? What's your recommendation there?

  [00:13:47] AP: I think my recommendation is usually to take some time after undergraduate before professional school, and that's for a lot of reasons. Right now, before the pandemic, we were about 50-50. So half the students would go directly through into professional school, and the other half would take some gap time or a gap year. So the pandemic really changed things, and that's a major understatement across the board, I know.

  With the pandemic, we went to about 80% of our students that took some gap time in-between. I think we will shift back to 50%, maybe 60% taking that gap. It's becoming more common, without a doubt. I know for law school, it is really encouraged, if not required, to take some time to get real-world experience in-between. Medical schools aren't requiring that. But if you look at it — and this is my argument for the gap here — is that when a student applies…and I'm going to use medical school as the generic just because it's easier for me to default to medical school…But if you're applying to medical school, and somebody else with your exact numbers is also applying to medical school, but they took three years of gap time and really did amazing things in that time — whether it was research, whether it was service, whether it was whatever it was. But they did something outside of their academics, they did something that allowed them to mature a little bit to show who they were. If you are the medical admissions committee, who is the more attractive candidate? And I think, every time, you're going to take the one with more experience.

  So I really think the gap is a good thing. I think the way that I'll often sell it to students, and what I have, oftentimes, students tell me, is, “After four years of really intense undergraduate work, I'm going to need a break. So I want a year to just sort of decompress a little bit.” And without exception, the students that take that gap time are so excited to get back into academics when they return. They miss the academics, and then they hit medical school just ready to go. And that's, I think, your ideal.

  [00:15:57] BW: And what if that student says, “Well, that year also means it's going to be a year later that I'm actually working and earning a paycheck.” What's your response there?

  [00:16:06] AP: My husband's a physician, and after practicing for around 30 years, I think 30 years versus 31 years would not be a difference at that point. It, A, all blends together. B – and I know at 18 years old, this sounds that you might not be able to relate to it — but the older you get, you just get tired. And I can relate. You do, you get a little exhausted. So that one-year gap is not going to be anything that you're going to look back and go, “Oh, wow! I wish I would not have done that. I could have practice for 37 years instead of only 36 years.” It is sort of a non-game changer.

  [00:16:48] BT: So Bryan said the word “paycheck” in that last question. And so that makes me curious about expenses, debt. Medical schools aren't cheap, but there is the promise that you'll be able to pay off that debt after a few years as a doctor, or whatever you might become. And so how should students who are considering being pre-health factor that in?

  [00:17:10] AP: I think, always, the finances have to be at the forefront. I don't think you can really make a good decision without considering that. I think, for any student, as they're applying to – and again, medical is the generic — a medical school, if you have a state university, a state medical school, it is always going to be less expensive and, for that reason, should always be your first choice. Because finances are a big deal. You don't want to start your life in debt, in significant debt.

  Medical schools will offer financial aid. There are packages just like undergraduate. Maybe not to the same degree of undergraduate financial aid packages, but there is financial aid. So I think that's something that should always be considered.

  [00:17:59] BW: And once you get out into the job force, you're obviously going to start looking for a job. What is that landscape looking like right now? And if you could get out your crystal ball and predict what it's going to look like in 10 years, what do you think it might be like for someone who's in high school right now that is looking at that long road toward a health career?

  [00:18:19] AP: So, two things: One is sort of the smart-aleck response, which I have to start with, is 10 years ago, if you would have told me that I was wearing a mask everywhere, I would have said you were crazy. If you would have said there was going to be a global pandemic, I would have said, “There's no way in this world.” And clearly, I don't have that crystal ball. However, on the sort of employment landscape, there has never been a time that there has been sort of difficulty in finding employment as a medical professional.

  Right now, because of the pandemic, nursing positions are everywhere. If you are a nurse — if you're really any medical professional — you can almost write your own ticket because there's such a need right now. I don't think you ever choose your path based on that, but if you have an interest in the health professions, I think it's always a good thing. And I think there is not going to be any sort of decrease in the need or in the demand for health professionals. People always get sick. And people always want to be healed, they'll want to always want to get better. So I think there's always a need for the medical professions. I wish I could say in 10 years, this is exactly how it will be, and this is the specialty that will be top of the field. There's no way to do that.

  [00:19:42] BW: And speaking of careers, can I ask a quick follow up? How do you suggest someone balance that age old question of high pay versus high satisfaction? Like, if there's a field that maybe doesn't pay as well as other health care fields, but you would be happier there, what's your advice?

  [00:20:00] AP: I think the first thing is — and again, speaking as the old lady in the room — I think you have to enjoy what you do. At 17, or 18, or 28, whatever you are, it's hard to say that that's the most important thing. Everybody says, “No, but I just need to make bundles and bundles.” You need to enjoy it.

  But I think the way that you can find out the things that you will enjoy is to really get out into the setting, into the atmosphere that you want to work in. If you think you want to be a physician, talk to your doctor the next time. Say, “Can I do a little informal interview with you?” Or the next time you see your dentist, say, “Could I come in and just shadow sometime? I think I'd like to do what you do. Can you tell me about your path, or your day-to-day?” If you think you want to be a nurse, become a CNA, a nurse's aide. Get in on that sort of base level. Start doing the things that will get you to that end goal.

  I think you have to observe. You have to experience it. You can't just say…it would be like going to the ice cream shop and saying, “Oh, I like that pretty pink one. That's what I want.” And then find out it tastes like Pepto Bismol. And I apologize if you like Pepto, but you can't always judge what you might like just based on appearances. You have to experience it. And once you do that, that's how you figure out the way you might want to go. It's not easy.

  I have a son right now who's a senior. We are doing this personally, not just professionally. So it's a tough road. But it's, I think, definitely a worthwhile one. And what's nice, for me anyway…I work in Center for Career Advancement. So we have so many resources for students to help make those decisions.

  [00:22:02] BW: Well, that is fantastic advice and a great place to close out this episode of College Admissions Insider. Thanks, Alison Patterson, for joining us and sharing your insight today.

  [00:22:12] AP: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me.

  [00:22:15] BT: And thanks to everyone out there for listening. If you're a fan of the podcast, please take a moment to rate, subscribe and share this episode with any young aspiring doctors that you know.

  [00:22:27] BW: And definitely a shout out to all of our health care workers out there, current, past and future, for all that you do. College Admissions Insider will be back with another new episode in two weeks. In the meantime, send your questions, comments and episode ideas to us at podcast@bucknell.edu.

  [00:22:45] BT: And we also invite you to follow Bucknell on all of your favorite social media apps. Just look for @BucknellU on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and TikTok. You can also follow our student run Instagram account, which is @iamraybucknell.

  [00:23:01] BW: Until next time, keep on reaching for your dreams and your dream school.